Haast’s Eagle

The largest bird of prey in modern times

Before humans settled New Zealand about 700 years ago and introduced invasive species like cats and rats, there were no land-dwelling mammals on the islands – aside from three species of bats. Instead, the ecosystem was dominated by approximately 250 bird species. At the top of the food chain were two birds of prey: Haast’s eagle and the Eyles’ harrier (Circus teauteensis), which went extinct in the 13th century, the largest known member of the harrier genus. These raptors filled an ecological niche in New Zealand that, in other parts of the world, would have been occupied by large predators like wolves or big cats.

Island ecosystems like New Zealand’s often promote rapid evolutionary adaptations, especially in terms of body size and the flight ability of birds. Many island bird species lost their ability to fly over the course of evolution due to the absence of natural enemies and instead developed other adaptations. Well-known examples include the dodo on Mauritius, the elephant bird on Madagascar and the moas in New Zealand, which evolved into flightless, ground-dwelling birds.

In contrast, Haast’s eagle increased dramatically in size without losing its ability to fly. In most other birds, a massive increase in size usually leads to the loss of flight capability, but Haast’s eagle—reaching up to 18 kilograms and a wingspan of three meters—remained capable of flight and could hunt large prey such as moas.

DNA analyses by Michael Bunce and his team in 2005 showed that this size adaptation began about 0.7 to 1.8 million years ago. Haast’s eagle underwent an extraordinarily rapid weight increase—ten- to fifteen-fold—over a relatively short period. This swift development was probably favoured by the presence of large prey animals and the absence of competition from other predators. This evolutionary history of Haast’s eagle is a prime example of island gigantism, illustrating how specialised and unusually large species can arise on isolated islands, free from competition.

Haast’s eagle – fact sheet

alternative names	Haasts eagle, New Zealand eagle, giant eagle, Pouākai, Te Hōkioi, Hokioi, Hakawai, Harpagornis
scientific names	Aquila moorei, Hieraaetus moorei, Harpagornis moorei, Haliaeetus moorei, Harpagornis assimilis
original range	South Island of New Zealand
time of extinction	14th or 15th century
causes of extinction	loss of prey, habitat loss

Haast’s eagle and the early settlers of New Zealand

The first settlers of New Zealand coexisted with Haast’s eagle, as evidenced by rock drawings, oral traditions and finds of eagle bones that were made into tools. Some of these bones show traces suggesting that the eagle’s flesh was removed. In Māori mythology, it is assumed that the Haast’s eagle, under the names Pouākai or Hakawai (Hōkioi on the North Island), in many legends a central role played.

Although no European researcher ever observed Haast’s eagle hunting, Māori oral traditions provide clues about its behaviour and appearance. Sir George Grey, an early governor of New Zealand, recorded in 1872 the description of a Māori man about the Hokioi:

“This bird, the Hokioi, was seen by our ancestors. We (nowadays) have not seen it. This bird has disappeared today. The statement of our ancestors was that it was a mighty bird, a very mighty bird. It was a very large hawk. Its resting place was on the mountain tops; it did not rest on the plains. On the days it flew, our ancestors saw it; it was not seen every day, for its home was in the mountains. Its colour was red and black and white. It was a bird with black feathers streaked with yellow and green tones; it had a tuft of red feathers on its head. It was a large bird, as large as a moa.”

Description of the extinct gigantic bird of prey, Hokioi, by a Maori. 1873. Transactions of the New Zealand Institute 5. p. 435. G. Grey

Some Māori legends report that the Haast’s eagle may also have killed people. Paul Rodgers mentioned in 2009 in an article for The New Zealand Herald that legends tell of a flying monster called Pouakai or Hokioi that seized children who were outside early in the morning or late in the evening. These stories are embedded in the tribal knowledge of the Māori tribes Taranaki, Tainui and Whanganui and describe the monster as fast and strong enough to kill people.

Although there is no direct scientific evidence that Haast’s eagle actually killed people, its enormous size and strength suggest that it would have been possible. Palaeontologists such as Richard N. Holdaway argue in The Lost World of the Moa (2002) that the Haast’s eagle was large and powerful enough to kill even adult humans. By comparison, smaller eagle species are already capable of killing prey such as sika deer or bear cubs that weigh many times their own body weight.

The legends describe how the Hokioi attacked with its powerful talons, suggesting that Māori were aware of this threat. Some traditions also state that the eagle flew high above the mountains and dived down onto its prey at great speed.

One theory suggests that the name “Hokioi” may be an onomatopoeic imitation of the eagle’s scream. Indications of this can also be found in records by Sir George Grey that he received from a Māori man. One of these traditions describes a mythical contest between a falcon and the Hokioi, highlighting the characteristic calls of both birds:

“The falcon said he could reach the sky; the Hokioi said he could reach the sky; there was a quarrel between them. The Hokioi asked the falcon, ‘What shall be your sign?’ The falcon replied, ‘kei’ (the typical cry of the falcon). Then the falcon asked, ‘What shall be your sign?’ The Hokioi replied, ‘hokioi-hokioi-hu-u’. These were their words. Then they flew and approached the sky. The winds and clouds came. The falcon cried ‘kei’ and descended; it could go no further because of the winds and clouds, but the Hokioi vanished into the sky. ‘Kei’ is the falcon’s cry. ‘Hokioi-hokioi’ is the Hokioi’s cry. ‘Hu-u’ is the sound the Hokioi’s wings make. It was recognised by the sound of its wings when it descended to the earth.”

Description of the extinct gigantic bird of prey, Hokioi, by a Maori. 1873. Transactions of the New Zealand Institute 5. p. 435. G. Grey

Did Haast’s eagle once live on New Zealand’s North Island?

There is no evidence that Haast’s eagle once lived on New Zealand’s North Island. While the Eyles’ harrier occurred on both islands, fossil remains of Haast’s eagle have been found exclusively on the South Island. It is therefore assumed that this eagle species was endemic to the South Island. What remains unclear, however, is why the legend of the Pouakai – a huge, flying monster – also plays a role in the traditions of the Taranaki and Tainui tribes of the North Island. Pouakai is often associated with Haast’s eagle, even though it lived only on the South Island.

The historian Tom O’Connor offers some possible explanations (2009): One possibility is that the Pouakai legend is a tribal memory of a time when the ancestors of the Taranaki and Tainui tribes may have lived on the South Island, where Haast’s eagle was native. These stories could have been passed down through generations, even after the tribes moved to the North Island. Another theory is that there may be undiscovered fossil remains of a Haast’s eagle or a similarly large bird of prey on the North Island , which would explain why the legend is present there. Finally, Pouakai might also be a purely mythological being that grew over time through storytelling. In Māori culture, taniwha – terrifying, supernatural beings – play an important role. Pouakai could have been interpreted as a taniwha that lived high in the mountains as a powerful being and watched over the valleys. Such legends often symbolise respect and reverence for nature and its dangers.

Haast’s eagle: origin and taxonomy

The German naturalist Julius von Haast described Haast’s eagle scientifically for the first time in 1872. The basis for this were fossil remains discovered by Frederick Richardson Fuller, the taxidermist at the Canterbury Museum, in a former swamp in New Zealand. For his description, Haast had a femur, two claw bones, a rib and a fragment of a humerus at his disposal. By comparing these bones with those of other birds of prey, Haast was able to infer the enormous size and power of Haast’s eagle and thus create a detailed scientific description of this extinct species.

Haast gave the newly discovered species the name Harpagornis moorei, with the specific epithet honouring George Henry Moore, the owner of Glenmark Estate, where the remains were found. The genus name comes from Greek: harpax means “grappling hook” and ornis “bird”. Due to the immense size of Haast’s eagle it was originally assumed to be more closely related to the wedge-tailed eagle (Aquila audax) found in Australia. However, the genetic analyses by Michael Bunce and his team in 2005 brought surprising insights: Haast’s eagle is genetically closer to the much smaller little eagle (Hieraaetus morphnoides) as well as the booted eagle (Hieraaetus pennatus). This discovery led to the reclassification of the genus from Harpagornis to Hieraaetus. More recent taxonomists place Haast’s eagle in the genus of true eagles (Aquila).

A New Zealand study from 2019, which examined mitochondrial DNA, also confirmed that Haast’s eagle is even more closely related to the little eagle, considered the smallest eagle in the world. The split of Haast’s eagle from these smaller relatives is thought to have occurred about 1.8 million to 700,000 years ago, highlighting its remarkable evolution into one of the largest birds of prey in history.

H. assimilis as a synonym for H. moorei

In 1874, Julius von Haast proposed the name Harpagornis assimilis for a smaller partial eagle skeleton discovered alongside a larger specimen in the swamp deposits near Glenmark. Haast realised that H. assimilis differed from Haast’s eagle Harpagornis moorei only in its smaller size. He was aware that birds of prey often show pronounced sexual size dimorphism, and he already suspected that the smaller bird might have been a male Haast’s eagle. However, since he did not have sufficient evidence, he decided to name the smaller specimen as a separate species for the time being, H. assimilis, to emphasise the close relationship between the two.

In a study from 1990, the palaeontologist Richard N. Holdaway was finally able to prove that Harpagornis assimilis and Harpagornis moorei are not two different species, but merely represent different sizes of the same species . Haast already suspected in 1874 that the smaller bird he called H. assimilis was the male of H. moorei, and this assumption was supported by Holdaway’s analyses. The size differences can be explained by typical sexual dimorphism, in which the female is larger than the male – a well-known phenomenon in many eagle species.

Evolution and description of the bird of prey

The evolutionary and biogeographic history of Haast’s eagle long remained mysterious. The 2019 study showed, however, that both Haast’s eagle and the Eyles’ harrier descended from significantly smaller relatives that were originally adapted to open landscapes in Australasia. This development took place in the late Pliocene to early Pleistocene. These events coincided with the development of open habitats on New Zealand’s previously densely forested islands. These more open habitats emerged due to climatic and environmental changes that fundamentally altered the ecosystem. The less densely forested landscape provided room for new species and ways of life. The raptors adapted to these new habitats because they found better hunting conditions there, especially due to easier access to large prey such as moas that lived in open areas.

Haast’s eagle was one of the largest birds of prey ever known. In 1992, ornithologist Donald Hillyer Brathwaite estimated the raptor’s weight based on the dimensions of a skeleton in Notes on the Weight, Flying Ability, Habitat, and Prey of Haast’s Eagle. He calculated the live weight of smaller males at around 11.5 kilograms and that of larger females at over 14 kilograms. Other sources place the weight of females between ten and 18 kilograms, while that of males is between nine and twelve kilograms. By comparison, none of today’s living eagles in the wild weigh more than nine kilograms, making Haast’s eagle about 40 percent larger than the largest living eagles.

Despite its high weight, Haast’s eagle could fly, but its wings were proportionally shorter and broader than those of other eagles from open landscapes such as the Australian wedge-tailed eagle. These broad, short wings probably prevented soaring, but they enabled Haast’s eagle to manoeuvre in dense forests. Female Haast’s eagles had a wingspan of 2.6 to three meters, which is remarkable compared to smaller eagle species (such as wedge-tailed eagles, golden eagles or white-tailed eagle), as they have similar spans.

According to Brathwaite, aerodynamic considerations show that broad, short wings are often associated with a long tail—unlike eagles from open landscapes, which have shorter tails. Short, broad wings and long tails are typical of forest eagles. If Haast’s eagle had a long tail, that suggests it likely lived in forests. The relatively small wingspan is not a sign that Haast’s eagle was evolving toward flightlessness but may represent an evolutionary adaptation for navigating through dense woodland.

The particularly muscular legs and pronounced flight muscles of Haast’s eagle probably enabled it, despite its heavy weight, to take off from the ground with a powerful leap. Its tail was likely long – over 50 centimetres in females – and very broad, compensating for the reduced wing area with additional lift. The total length of females is estimated to have been up to 1.4 meters, with a standing height of about 90 centimetres or more.

Was Haast’s eagle a scavenger like a vulture?

In his 1881 treatise On Harpagornis, an extinct genus of gigantic raptorial birds of New Zealand, Julius von Haast noted similarities between the morphology of Haast’s eagle and that of vultures. In particular, the lower jaw of Haast’s eagle resembled that of Andean condors (Vultur gryphus) and griffon vultures (Gyps fulvus). These observations led to speculation that Haast’s eagle may have had scavenging habits. In a 2009 study, the palaeontologist R. Paul Scofield and the neuroscientist Ken W. Ashwell pointed to bony structures around the nostrils of Haast’s eagle that are typical of large vultures . These ossifications prevent foreign material from entering the nose when feeding on carcasses, which is an adaptation found in scavenging birds.

Despite these morphological similarities, their investigations suggest that Haast’s eagle probably did not have vulture-like behaviours. The rapid increase in its body size and the adaptations in the somatic nervous system of its legs came at the expense of growth in other areas such as the brain, the visual and olfactory systems, and the balance organ. While its body size increased tenfold, brain volume only grew to about two or three times.

Scavenging birds such as the turkey vulture (Cathartes aura) rely heavily on a keen sense of smell and excellent eyesight to locate carcasses. By contrast, Haast’s eagle had a much less developed sense of smell, and its vision—relative to its body size—was also rather weak. Its eyes were smaller and its capacity for visual processing was lower. These findings contradict the idea that Haast’s eagle depended on smell or eyesight as a scavenger and instead support the theory that it was an active hunter. It did not need extraordinary senses to locate prey and likely relied on its immense physical strength, as well as its powerful legs and talons, to overpower it.

It cannot be ruled out that Haast’s eagle occasionally fed on carrion. In a 1987 analysis of skeletal remains, Brathwaite found that Haast’s eagle undoubtedly also ate carcasses or injured animals. Nevertheless, this does not appear to have been its primary role in the ecosystem.

Kill like an eagle, eat like a vulture

In the 20th century, the prevailing assumption was that Haast’s eagle was primarily a scavenger. More recent research, however, favours a theory that describes it as an active hunter. In a 2021 study, the palaeontologist Anneke H. van Heteren and her team examined the shape and biomechanical strength of Haast’s eagle’s skull, beak, and talons compared with five living scavengers and birds of prey.

The results of this study show that Haast’s eagle’s skull closely resembles that of an eagle, while the neurocranium—the rear part of the skull—has more in common with that of a vulture, especially the Andean condor. The beak and talons, by contrast, clearly resemble those of modern eagles. This refutes earlier assumptions based on two-dimensional analyses that classified Haast’s eagle’s beak as vulture-like. The differing development of skull and beak shape could point to rapid evolutionary adaptation.

The researchers’ biomechanical analyses showed that Haast’s eagle had a stronger bite than modern eagle species such as the harpy eagle (Harpia harpyja), one of the strongest raptors alive today. The simulations also showed that Haast’s eagle’s talons could withstand extreme loads. When gripping, its talons deformed far less than those of modern birds of prey, indicating a particularly strong adaptation.

Van Heteren agrees with recent findings insofar as Haast’s eagle, as an active hunter, overpowered prey that was often larger than itself by killing it with its powerful talons. However, when it comes to feeding behaviour, it differs from modern eagles: van Heteren suggests that Haast’s eagle ate its prey more like an Andean condor, preferentially consuming nutrient-rich internal organs and muscles. In doing so, it thrust its head deep into the carcass, as vultures do when feeding on the carcasses of larger animals.

The idea that Haast’s eagle preferred the internal organs of its prey suggests that it—like vultures—had a featherless head and neck to better deal with carcasses. Rock drawings support this assumption, as Haast’s eagle is often depicted with few or no feathers on its head—a typical adaptation for animals that feed on the entrails of bloody carcasses.

Van Heteren concludes that Haast’s eagle had a unique mix of eagle- and vulture-like traits that likely evolved in response to strong selection pressure that made hunting and consuming particularly large prey necessary.

Hunting and feeding behaviour of Haast’s eagle

The hawk family (Accipitridae) includes a diverse group of raptors such as eagles, harriers, and Old World vultures. These birds feed primarily on animals and have different prey preferences. Some specialise in mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, birds, or carrion, while others are generalists that eat a wide range of prey, including invertebrates. These different diets require specialised hunting strategies and have led to the evolution of adapted morphological traits such as particular skull and talon structures.

For Haast’s eagle, researchers agree that its morphology was at the upper limit of body mass for active flight. Despite its enormous size, it was a highly specialised hunter. Like other members of the hawk family, Haast’s eagle killed its prey by piercing and crushing it with its powerful talons.

In his original 1872 description of Haast’s eagle, Julius von Haast assumed that this raptor “undoubtedly followed the moa herds and either fed on the carcasses of dead birds or killed the young and the weak”. But this view changed radically when the palaeontologist Richard N. Holdaway, during excavations in Pyramid Valley in 1991, found moa bones with deep, massive wound patterns that unmistakably came from the talons of a gigantic eagle. In the years that followed, dozens of moa pelvic bones were discovered, including remains of birds weighing more than 200 kilograms that showed severe injuries from eagle talons. The talons penetrated five centimetres through skin and muscle before piercing the bone.

Holdaway estimates that about ten percent of the moa bones found in Pyramid Valley show signs of attacks by Haast’s eagle . These finds confirm that Haast’s eagle was an active predator capable of effectively hunting and killing even large prey such as moas.

Haast’s eagle hunting techniques: efficient and brutal

Scofield and Ashwell assume that Haast’s eagle, like the modern harpy eagle, flew rarely but extremely fast. It likely perched in tall trees and swooped down from there at high speed onto its prey. A description from 1878 by Reverend James W. Stack supports this assumption:

“A Pouakai had built its nest on a spur of Mount Tawera and swooped down from there, seized and carried off men, women, and children as food for itself and its young. For although its wings made a loud noise as it flew through the air, it descended upon its prey with such speed that no one could escape its talons.”

Sketch of the traditional history of the South Island Maoris. 1878. Transactions and Proceedings of the New Zealand Institute 10. p. 63. J. W. Stack

Even if the abduction of humans is probably exaggerated, this account fits Scofield and Ashwell’s assumption that Haast’s eagle hunted in open terrain or mountainous regions by diving down on its prey from mountain ledges or large trees. This theory is supported by the discovery of many fossil remains in open country.

Other researchers, such as Brathwaite, assume instead that Haast’s eagle hunted more in the dense forests and scrub of New Zealand, similar to modern forest raptors. Past vegetation patterns in New Zealand show that the island was densely forested before the arrival of the Polynesians about 1,000 years ago. This is also supported by fossil bone finds from places such as Pyramid Valley, an area dominated by forest vegetation.

Because of its enormous size, Haast’s eagle likely had high food requirements. In New Zealand’s Holocene fauna there were three main groups of large flightless herbivores that could serve as prey: giant geese (Cnemiornis), adzebills (Aptornis), and moas (Dinornithiformes). Geese and moas probably made up a large share of its prey, because fossil remains of adzebills suggest that their population was rather small.

Given its enormous physical strength and its huge talons, capable of piercing bone, it would have been no difficulty for Haast’s eagle to knock down and kill an 18-kilogram South Island giant goose or a smaller moa. Brathwaite even considers it possible that Haast’s eagle hunted the largest South Island giant moas, which weighed up to 300 kilograms. A modern comparison suggests that Haast’s eagle might well have been capable of killing a cow.

Scofield and Ashwell also noted that the muscles and joints of Haast’s eagle’s hind legs were densely innervated, meaning that its talons were not only extremely sensitive but also strong enough to effectively catch and kill live prey such as large moas. The talon marks on moa bones show that Haast’s eagle preferentially attacked the lower back, the kidney area, and the region below the base of the skull.

Modern raptors also show that birds of prey can kill prey that weighs many times their own body weight. or example, a golden eagle (Aquila chrysaetos) weighing only around six kilograms can attack and kill a sika deer (Cervus nippon) weighing up to 80 kilograms.

The kākāpō (Strigops habroptilus), a nocturnal, flightless parrot from New Zealand, was also likely on Haast’s eagle’s menu. A study published in September 2024 examined the green and olive colour variants of the kākāpō and their persistence despite sharply declining populations. Genetic analyses showed that the olive-green plumage colouration arose around 1.93 million years ago, at a time when Haast’s eagle and the Eyles’ harrier were also evolving.

Computer simulations suggest that the rarer olive-green colour was harder for raptors to detect, which could explain why both colour variants have persisted in the kākāpō population to this day. These results suggest that the kākāpō’s plumage colouration was an adaptation to visual hunting pressure from raptors such as Haast’s eagle. Interestingly, this adaptation persisted even after Haast’s eagle and the Eyles’ harrier went extinct around 500 years ago.

According to Brathwaite, the kākāpō—as well as the takahē (Porphyrio mantelli)—would have been possible prey for Haast’s eagle, but smaller animals would probably have been difficult for the eagle to catch and hold because its massive talons were better suited to larger prey.

Why did Haast’s eagle go extinct?

Haast’s eagle likely went extinct because of the dramatic change in its environment after the arrival of the first human settlers in New Zealand. New Zealand’s geographic isolation had produced a unique bird fauna that existed without natural terrestrial predators. But the arrival of humans around 1280 radically changed this ecosystem. As Trevor H. Worthy and Richard N. Holdaway describe in The Lost World of the Moa (2002), the arrival of the Polynesians, the ancestors of the Māori, led to an extinction rate of about 50 percent of bird species.

An earlier hypothesis held that Haast’s eagle itself may have contributed to the extinction of the moas by overhunting them, thereby destroying its own food base. However, this theory has largely been refuted. The New Zealand author Quinn Berentson writes aptly in Moa: The Life and Death of New Zealand’s Legendary Bird:

“Humans are the only known predators that drive their prey to extinction—everyone else ends up in balance, and there are always far fewer top predators than prey. It is unlikely that there were more than a few thousand Haast’s eagles across hundreds of thousands of square kilometres in the south of New Zealand, perhaps hunting a million moas, so their impact on the moa population would have been minimal. In fact, the opposite was true—the eagles were not responsible for the extinction of the moas, but when the moas disappeared, the eagles died out as well.”

Moa: The Life and Death of New Zealand’s Legendary Bird. 2021. p. 211. Q. Berentson.

The main cause of Haast’s eagle’s extinction was therefore humans. The Māori hunted the moas, Haast’s eagle’s main food source, to extinction within one or two centuries. At the same time, they burned large areas of forest to make room for settlements and agriculture, further destroying Haast’s eagle’s natural habitats. Without moas and other large flightless birds that Haast’s eagle had specialised on, and given the drastic reduction of its habitat, the eagle had no chance of survival. Haast’s eagle could not adapt to these rapidly changing environmental conditions and went extinct at about the same time as its main prey disappeared and its habitats were destroyed.

Did Haast’s eagle survive into the 19th or 20th century?

The general view among experts is that Haast’s eagle went extinct in the 14th or 15th century, along with its main prey, the moas. The zoologist Alan Tennyson argues in Extinct Birds of New Zealand (2006) that Haast’s eagle died out due to human activities, including habitat destruction and the overhunting of the moas. This view is also supported by researchers such as Bunce, Worthy, and Holdaway, who consider habitat change and human competition for resources to be the main causes of the eagle’s extinction.

However, there were reports of unconfirmed Haast’s eagle sightings into the 19th and early 20th centuries. In his study Two New Radiocarbon Ages for Haast’s Eagle and Comments on the Eagle’s Past Distribution and Possible Survival into the 19th Century (2021), the palaeontologist Richard N. Holdaway discusses the possibility that Haast’s eagle may have survived into the 19th century.

An interesting report comes from the surveyor and explorer Charles Edward Douglas, who shot two large birds in the Landsborough Valley in South Westland in the 1860s, which he described as “large falcons”. Sir Robert Falla suspected that the birds were swamp harriers (Circus approximans), but Holdaway disagrees. He argues that Douglas was an experienced naturalist and that it is unlikely he would have confused harriers with such large birds. Douglas described the birds as twice the size of harriers, which, according to Holdaway, could indicate that he did indeed see and kill Haast’s eagles. In addition, Haast’s eagle had not yet been scientifically described in Douglas’ time, so Douglas could not have known what bird species he was dealing with.

Radiocarbon dating shows that Haast’s eagle survived until around 2,000 years ago in subalpine regions such as Mount Owen on New Zealand’s South Island. A near-complete skeleton of a female Haast’s eagle was discovered there in a cave near the summit. This skeleton suggests that isolated populations of the eagle may have survived in remote areas. The rapid spread of lowland rainforest after the end of the Ice Age quickly enveloped Mount Owen and isolated its high basins, which may have led to the population becoming isolated.

Holdaway speculates that these remote subalpine areas could potentially have served as habitat for Haast’s eagle into the 19th century , as they remained isolated and were less affected by human activities. The southern part of the South Island, which remained relatively untouched, may also have offered sufficient prey such as takahē to support a small population of Haast’s eagles. Until the introduction of deer and other ruminants in the 1860s, the area would have retained much of its original vegetation and provided suitable habitat for a small eagle population. Holdaway does not rule out the possibility that Haast’s eagle may have survived in these regions, and Douglas’ records could be a clue.